What exactly is the difference? This is precisely what I mean by making sense – you are re-using the resource, which is better than recycling it. You claim to be far too selfish to protect the environment, but in your comments you’ve given countless examples of the things you do, which backs up Graybo’s point, that everyone does their bit in different ways. Sorry, Adrian, but you’re greener than you want to be.

Ah, the old “someone should do something about it” mentality.

Maybe you are science. Maybe recycling is the scientific solution.

It sounds like your idea of science involves breaking the laws of physics.

“And then we press this button here, see, and energy is created out of nowhere! We’re all saved!”

See it’s ok for you to want a better planet at the cost of my next ski holiday, but I would rather have the ski holiday. Part of this is selfishness, and part of this is utmost faith in our ability to solve problems via science. It’s a cop out I know. Although I do have a lot of faith in humans ingenuity when pushed.

As for re-using plastic bags. I don’t do this because it’s the right thing or because it makes sense, but because I need plastic bags for things. I do it because it’s useful.

Ultimately I think economics will cause change far more than anything else. In SA you have to pay 5p or what not for every plastic bag at the shops. The more you do this the more people reuse plastic bags. Double the price of water and people will use less in a kettle and shower more. Make food flown in from Brazil 5 times the price and people will buy less. Economics affects peoples behaviour more than anything else.

The question is, can you get enough governments to be smart enough to manipulate the economics for long term growth and sustainability (i.e. not the current US administration) as opposed to letting things get so bad that market conditions determine change anyway.

Alternatively we could just try teach our kids to be better than we are. Or in my case, I could try teach your kids.

Re-using your plastic bags is a really good example of doing the right thing because it makes sense – that’s exactly what I’m getting at.

Karen, I in know what was implying you are socially conscious to feel smug or appeased guilt. I know you do the research and actually understand all or most of the other impacts, and don’t just do something that makes you feel better. However a lot of other people do. I fully admit that you are a better person than me. I’m not trying to say that my attitude is good, but just that it is what it is. I’m selfish, you’re not. I didn’t mean to imply that responsible behavior is only motivated by guilt, just that it’s often more done so that someone feels better rather than any genuine altruistic notion. Not always and not even by majority. Just that it’s not always not motivated by guilt either.

Clair, energy also exists in finite quantities, and recycling consumers a lot of it. As do other things that may be needed for recycling. Sometimes landfills are a better option, and ultimately degradable substances are better than recycling.

I was just using recycling as an example because I know a little more about it. If you find me a girlfriend I’ll try be more economical on water by insisting we shower together. Although the showers may take longer …

And, not recycling is not an option. There are EU taxes/fines coming on councils who fail to cut their disposal to landfill to defined levels. Many resources are, as Clair says, finite.

To people who can’t be arsed to recycle I say one thing. The next landill site should be built near YOUR house. Would that change your mind?

Councils will be undoubtedly start charging for the removal of waste to landill in the next 10 years, just as they already do in eg many counties in California. Your refuse is weighed as it goes into the rubbish truck, and you are billed accordingly. This is the only fair way forward.

In the area where I live, the people worst at recycling are frequnetly those with young children (just see what is outside people’s homes on rubbish day!). To them I say, why do I bother recycling so your children can still enjoy the planet when you can’t even be bothered to sort your paper, plastics, tins and cardboard from the rest of your rubbish?

The WI are having an anti-packaging day on June 20th. Major supermarkets will be picketed – well… leaflets will be handed out. It’s not the Government’s responsibility to stop over-packaging, it’s the supermarkets. After all, manufacturers only supply produce as supermarket buyers tell them to.

However…another thing to bare in mind. Recycling isn’t just about reducing energy consumption and reducing landfill. It’s also about ensuring continual supply of resources. Materials only exist in finite quantities.

As Graybo said in an earlier comment, people will choose the areas that they want to make a difference in, and some will choose more than others. I suppose I am saying that those who choose to do more are better people, but Adrian is right, that’s because I feel very strongly about it. However, it’s not all about my conscience or feeling smug, and I think that goes for a lot of people – I simply want the world to be a better, tidier, greener place – because it’s nicer for me and it will be nicer for my child to grow up in. I don’t drop litter: not because it would make me feel guilty (although it might), but because it will look a mess, and there’s no need, and it costs me no particular effort to take my litter to the nearest bin (or recycling point, haha).

Adrian, you’re suggesting that responsible behaviour is only motivated by guilt. I’m going to have to disagree with you there. (Sorry Gordon, Graybo’s right. There’s been far too much agreement around here!)

Seriously, I agree in part with Adrian about recycling and reduction – I’ve read a couple of very thorough analyses of recycling that suggest that the energy used and transportation impact really make it just about as damaging as using new product every time. And, to answer Pete, if everyone recycled all their recyclables, there’d be an even bigger pile of unused recycled material than there is now – we need everyone to buy recycled too.

I think that education will go part way – most kids seem much more environmentally savvy than we were when we were at school – but ultimately it will be market forces that will change things. I think that we are seeing the first changes in the market, but it will be a little while yet before massive change occurs. Legislation sounds a nice idea, but this government meddles too much already and I wonder if such legislation is really practicable. Does packaging legislation exist in other countries?

Ohh and for the record I think the carbon offsetting thing is ace and we’ve been trying various ways to improve our ‘rating’.

Take shopping bags for example. Above a certain weight (actually thickness) they are worth recycling. Below a certain weight they are not. The amount of energy and chemicals you put into the recycling has a higher environmental cost than the value of the recycling. I don’t have all the numbers on this, but my brother wrote a big whopping thesis on it, and has explained it to me so that I might understand it, but not so much that I can explain it. The same applies to metals and glass and paper, their are points where recycling has value and points where it doesn’t. But it’s complex to sort out the stuff that has less value form the stuff that has more. And it’s not something that makes good political appearces, good news sound bytes. And people like to feel they are doing good and not that their shopping bags aren’t worth recycling.

Also that the cost of recycling doesn’t take into account the effects of putting all the garbage to be recycling into trucks and moving it around the place, and a ton of other costs including things like the costs to produce the chemicals needed in recycling and the cost of getting those chemicals to the plants etc etc. And by cost I mean environmental cost non necessarily monetary cost.

All I am saying is that recycling is not necessarily as good as the sound byte makes it sound, and there are more things to look at, not that all of recycling is bad.

I think if people forced the government and produces to change the way goods are packaged (a biscuit in a wrapper in a box with two plastic trays in a big box with 5 small boxes in a carton with 5 boxes in a crate with 100 cartons etc etc) we could reduce a lot more waste and have a huge impact on the environment. If you look at environmental engineering, if you have hit the point of needing to recycle your mostly fucked anyway. There are four stages (if I recall correctly) before recycling to improve things. Recycling is the last stage you hit after you’ve messed up all the others.

I’m not having a go at anyone for recycling, just saying it’s more complex that’s all.

Here’s just a point of interest not a counter point. Equating Prius hybrids and Fluorescent light bulbs